Looks Like DC drops the ball with Milestone.

[EarthTone]

Although it's annoying, I could sort of see where there went with the Red Circle stuff. DC was trying to court JMS after he left Marvel, due to the One More Day debacle. The Red Circle stuff was one the main things JMS was interested in and wanted to work on. So DC went out and got it for him and then... they gave it to him.

Given how Impact tanked in the 90's, I'm not sure DC would have even bothered acquiring the Red Circle license if it wasn't for JMS. This is why I was suggesting finding ways to get DC creators with some substantial level of pull interested in the Milestone characters. The more pull, the better. If some of these guys are, then readers need to know about it. Though, I don't understand the logic behind launching Red Circle ongoings without JMS writing them. I also don't understand the part about licensing the Thunder Agents (though IICR, DC has been going after that for a while). I just hope the Thunder Agents don't get their own projects before the Milestone characters do.

A lot of people are coupling, to use a term, their displeasure with the Milestone characters not getting ongoing titles or miniseries with their notice, or even dismay, that the Red Circle characters are getting their own books. The point seems to be, Static and the Milestone characters have so much going for them, the Red Circle characters don't. And this proves... whatever it is that it proves.

Well consider this. DC has put out the Ink miniseries, featuring the Tattooed Man. The Tattooed Man is not an A-list character, not a B-list character, not even C-list... Q-list or R-list is more like. Tattooed Man had no fan base, following or anything. But he got a miniseries following Final Crisis. He does happen to a black character.

Then there's the all-Japanese Super Young Team that also got a miniseries after Final Crises. They have no history, no following, no... nothing. Heck, they're not even American. But they're getting a brief run.

So... when we express dismay for DC pushing Red Circle and not Milestone... we should, at the very same time, note or express dismay that DC is doing Ink and Super Young Team. Really, any book featuring new or old or any characters that don't have the popularity of the Milestone characters needs to be spoken about in the same breath as the Red Circle characters... correct?
****

This is just a rhetorical question, I'm not really looking for an answer.

It does seem to me though that the Red Circle comics have become a negative symbol, a whipping boy if you will, in this discussion of DC's failings with respect to Milestone. I think that's unfortunate. There is a lot of stuff being done creatively, with the Red Circle characters, with Ink, with the Super Young Team, and I hope they can be judged on their own merits, w/o the baggage that some of them seem to be taking on.

This is not to say I myself am happy with DC's handling of the Milestone characters, I think it sucks. But this coupling of the Milestone f-up with Red Circle (while selectively ignoring Ink and Super Young Team as examples of diversity) doesn't strike me as righteous.

OK, you can hate me now.
***

PS: One response I might get is: well, how do you justify that DC is doing the Red Circle stuff, and not Milestone? But WAIT: I am trying to justify why DC management does what it does. That's a good question, but it needs to be sent to DCComics.com.

[Bruno Diaz]

Although it's annoying, I could sort of see where there went with the Red Circle stuff. DC was trying to court JMS after he left Marvel, due to the One More Day debacle. The Red Circle stuff was one the main things JMS was interested in and wanted to work on. So DC went out and got it for him and then... they gave it to him.

Given how Impact tanked in the 90's, I'm not sure DC would have even bothered acquiring the Red Circle license if it wasn't for JMS. This is why I was suggesting finding ways to get DC creators with some substantial level of pull interested in the Milestone characters. The more pull, the better. If some of these guys are, then readers need to know about it. Though, I don't understand the logic behind launching Red Circle ongoings without JMS writing them. I also don't understand the part about licensing the Thunder Agents (though IICR, DC has been going after that for a while). I just hope the Thunder Agents don't get their own projects before the Milestone characters do.

A lot of people are coupling, to use a term, their displeasure with the Milestone characters not getting ongoing titles or miniseries with their notice, or even dismay, that the Red Circle characters are getting their own books. The point seems to be, Static and the Milestone characters have so much going for them, the Red Circle characters don't. And this proves... whatever it is that it proves.

Well consider this. DC has put out the Ink miniseries, featuring the Tattooed Man. The Tattooed Man is not an A-list character, not a B-list character, not even C-list... Q-list or R-list is more like. Tattooed Man had no fan base, following or anything. But he got a miniseries following Final Crisis. He does happen to a black character.

Then there's the all-Japanese Super Young Team that also got a miniseries after Final Crises. They have no history, no following, no... nothing. Heck, they're not even American. But they're getting a brief run.

So... when we express dismay for DC pushing Red Circle and not Milestone... we should, at the very same time, note or express dismay that DC is doing Ink and Super Young Team. Really, any book featuring new or old or any characters that don't have the popularity of the Milestone characters needs to be spoken about in the same breath as the Red Circle characters... correct?
****

This is just a rhetorical question, I'm not really looking for an answer.

It does seem to me though that the Red Circle comics have become a negative symbol, a whipping boy if you will, in this discussion of DC's failings with respect to Milestone. I think that's unfortunate. There is a lot of stuff being done creatively, with the Red Circle characters, with Ink, with the Super Young Team, and I hope they can be judged on their own merits, w/o the baggage that some of them seem to be taking on.

This is not to say I myself am happy with DC's handling of the Milestone characters, I think it sucks. But this coupling of the Milestone f-up with Red Circle (while selectively ignoring Ink and Super Young Team as examples of diversity) doesn't strike me as righteous.

OK, you can hate me now.

I agree with both statements. I'm a big fan of JMS too, mainly because I'm a huge Real Ghostbusters fan. I do think that when it comes to getting divas like Moore or him, as long as it's sustainable, publishers have to drop their pants a couple of times tho get them happy to play. I also thing that there's little point to non JMS Red Circle books and that Milestone is both more convinient and deserving. I'll also point out that fame fades, so DC is against time to cash on Static's.

From my POV, Ink, Batwoman and the Great Ten are poor choices when it comes to minority characters. Black Lightning and Static are both more convenient and deserving and should be consolidating fame with regular titles. Ink, with another name, should have been primarely about BL and secondarely about Tattooed man.

Also, I'll point out again, DC is trying to make a camel pass through the hole of a needle by trying to fit in the DCU all those Superman retconnings, the possible revival of deceased characters, the Dakotaverse and the Red Circle with out a major CoIE or Zero Hour type of reset of the history. They should also honor the continuities stated by Miller, Alan Grant, Byrne, DeMatteis, etc., by letting them (or maybe, in some cases,other authors, since Miller has been going Cucuu for Cocoa Puffs lately) write more Whatever Happened to the Man of Steel type of stories to close the story versions they started.

EarthTone, I don't get tired of reading your always insightful, well referenced and conciliating postings. I totally feel you and you're a reasonable man.

[Geoff Thorne]

DC isn't "trying" anything.

As much as I'm enjoying Blackest Night (and I am), at the end of the day, all it really is is editorial housecleaning disguised as an "event." Much the same as was the original CoIE. Old faves of Mr. Johns and Mr. Didio will be returned to life, now with a truly plausible explanation and, at the end, little else will have changed. (How much do you want to bet Jim Corrigan will be the Spectre again? No bet.) I'm actually halfway towards a theory that Blackest Night is, in fact, a sort of backlash against the trend toward more inclusion and diversity that DC seemed to be for prior to this and from which it is aggressively backing off.

IOW: if we're going to have five more non-white/non-straight/non males in the DCU, we need 100 straight white males to return to the game to provide the necessary "balance."

That's how it's looking to me this morning. Things may change later.

The Red Circle characters are a joke. It MAY be that JMS's name, alone, will boost them into good sales numbers but, again, as is always the case when people try to float this bogus "it's all about sales" argument, the numbers are not in favor of JMS on that score either. The ARE in favor of Milestone and yet there are "no plans" to do anything with the Dakota-verse.

IF it's about the bottom line (and that's a crock, frankly), a line of books that consistently outperformed ALL the other books that have been recently absorbed into DC, WITHOUT "star creators" attached to them, would be even MORE attractive rather than less.

It's bullshit. I said it was probably bullshit back when Dwayne first announced it might be possible that DC and Milestone would try again and I've never been more unhappy to be proven right about something before in my life.

People always talk about "iconic" characters. Nobody seems to really know what that means but they invoke the success of iconic characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man etc. as being part of some sort of trend away from original characters being created because new ones "just don't sell."

It's crap.

All an "iconic" character is is one whose continued success is NOT dependent upon being attached to "star names" but rather on market saturation and fan loyalty.

Static, at least, has that all over 100% of the new characters and universes that have been recently introduced into the DCU or are about to be and, in fact, over many more "established" characters in the DCU.

So, once again, the math tells the story.

This has nothing to do with math but with a complete failure to support Milestone's return. It's short-sighted and ugly and people ABSOLUTELY should say so. The should say so often and they ABSOLUTELY should draw the comparison between how MILESTONE has been treated vs Wildstorm, Charlton and the upcoming Red Circle.

How else do you expose hypocrisy but by pointing it out in juxtaposition to established behaviors and statements?

[EarthTone]

DC isn't "trying" anything.

It's crap.

How else do you expose hypocrisy but by pointing it out in juxtaposition to established behaviors and statements?

OK: Just to be sure I understand: you believe that DC's Ink and Super Young Team are crap, true? Compared to the Milestone pantheon, they are new and un-established characters, even more so than those from Red Circle.

So you believe that we should be pointing out what a bs decision it was to do the minis for those characters, and complain that DC has given print to them, when they could have done a Static or Hardware series... correct?

And really, any new or unestablished character that DC puts in a book is crap and suspect, until DC gives the Milestone characters book or minis... correct?

[Geoff Thorne]

No.

Your paraphrase is crap.

Your desire to have a debate based upon that paraphrase is crap.

Reread it; try again.

[kick]

DC isn't "trying" anything.

As much as I'm enjoying Blackest Night (and I am), at the end of the day, all it really is is editorial housecleaning disguised as an "event." Much the same as was the original CoIE. Old faves of Mr. Johns and Mr. Didio will be returned to life, now with a truly plausible explanation and, at the end, little else will have changed. (How much do you want to bet Jim Corrigan will be the Spectre again? No bet.) I'm actually halfway towards a theory that Blackest Night is, in fact, a sort of backlash against the trend toward more inclusion and diversity that DC seemed to be for prior to this and from which it is aggressively backing off.

IOW: if we're going to have five more non-white/non-straight/non males in the DCU, we need 100 straight white males to return to the game to provide the necessary "balance."

That's how it's looking to me this morning. Things may change later.

The Red Circle characters are a joke. It MAY be that JMS's name, alone, will boost them into good sales numbers but, again, as is always the case when people try to float this bogus "it's all about sales" argument, the numbers are not in favor of JMS on that score either. The ARE in favor of Milestone and yet there are "no plans" to do anything with the Dakota-verse.

IF it's about the bottom line (and that's a crock, frankly), a line of books that consistently outperformed ALL the other books that have been recently absorbed into DC, WITHOUT "star creators" attached to them, would be even MORE attractive rather than less.

It's bullshit. I said it was probably bullshit back when Dwayne first announced it might be possible that DC and Milestone would try again and I've never been more unhappy to be proven right about something before in my life.

People always talk about "iconic" characters. Nobody seems to really know what that means but they invoke the success of iconic characters like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man etc. as being part of some sort of trend away from original characters being created because new ones "just don't sell."

It's crap.

All an "iconic" character is is one whose continued success is NOT dependent upon being attached to "star names" but rather on market saturation and fan loyalty.

Again, given how poorly the Impact line sold in the 90's, DC probably wouldn't have even bothered trying to have anything to do with Red Circle/Archie if they hadn't been trying to bend over for JMS. Hell, bending over for Johns is the reason we have Blackest Night. And although I enjoyed Final Crisis, bending over for Morrison is the reason it got as... weird as it did with little editorial oversight (It's annoying that they won't extend the same sort of courtesy towards Dwayne). On the flipside, look at how DC editorial fucked around with Jim Shooter's run on Legion of Superheroes.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=18623

And Shooter is supposed to be an industry legend.

Still, I don't get the reasoning behind giving the Red Circle characters solo titles if those titles are not going to be written by JMS. They're going to tank hard. I actually feel sorry for the people who are writing those titles, especially Angela, as I'm sure they're probably going to be good reading. Trust me, those books are going to fail without JMS writing them. In fact, any of the Red Circle stuff in general not written by JMS is going to tank. Then there's the Thunder Agents. Once again, I really hope they don't get their own projects before the Milestone characters do.

I also don't understand why Magog is getting his own book (but then again, it's Giffen).

Static, at least, has that all over 100% of the new characters and universes that have been recently introduced into the DCU or are about to be and, in fact, over many more "established" characters in the DCU.

The problem isn't Static, as it looks like they're interested in concentrating on him only (although he should have gotten a back-up feature or mini or something. I don't get why he hasn't yet). It's all the other Milestone characters. Aside from a few issues of BATB and an arc in JLA, DC is doing absolutely NOTHING with them. There are lots of great things that can be done with these characters. Imagine how EPIC the Blood Syndicate vs. Intergang would be. Imagine the Shadow Cabinet vs. Checkmate/the DEO/Amanda Waller/Suicide Squad. I really enjoyed Rozum's work on BATB #26 and I want to see a Spectre/Xombi series. Once again, Impact sold like crap. The only reason we're seeing Red Circle ANYTHING is because of DC trying to bend over forwards and grab their ankles for JMS. That's why we need a creator, or creators, with that sort of pull interested in some Milestone projects. And if they are, then the readers need to know about it.

This has nothing to do with math but with a complete failure to support Milestone's return. It's short-sighted and ugly and people ABSOLUTELY should say so. The should say so often and they ABSOLUTELY should draw the comparison between how MILESTONE has been treated vs Wildstorm, Charlton and the upcoming Red Circle.

Charlton? Ouch, man. Not a good example. Also, peep the figures for the Wildstorm line. Those books are tanking horribly now that Jim Lee has abandoned Wildstorm and Morrison never finished the Wildstorm revival he was supposed to helm and now some of those titles have either already been cancelled or on the verge of cancellation. Once again, no big name creators, so people end up not giving a shit. But seriously, the Wildstorm "relaunch" has been an absolute mess (which is a shame, as I've been enjoying Gage's WildC.A.T.s stories). I'm pretty angry at how much TPTB have fucked that up.

[Geoff Thorne]

hmmm.


So the choices are basic incompetence and croneyism or basic incompetence and croneyism with a racial and gender bias?

Charleton, at its height, was a lackluster performer and, had it not been for its connection to Steve Ditko and his pet creations there, I doubt the fanboys would have been interested on way or the other. DeMaties and Giffen made the Beetle fit into the DCU by folding him into their comedic take on JLA but he NEVER, not once EVER, managed to sustain a book for any length of time on his own. Ditto the Question who, despite a pretty awesome debut run, has foundered since (until, frankly, JLU:A gave him the Rorschach treatmant and DC gave the job to Montoya.)

Wildstorm's entire strength was its connection to Jim Lee, a fan favorite artist for a couple of decades now. What numbers did GEN13 do vs Static? Wildstorm is important because it should have been the model for Milestone's treatment. Mr. Majestic was used as a "Gateway drug" allowing Wildstorm's contact with and ultimately synching with the main DCU. After several xover appearances in high profile books, we get the big relaunch of WILDSTORM as part of the DCU with Jim Lee as EIC of his little feif.

Is anyone floating the notion that BACKLASH or TEAM 7 ever did the sort of numbers that Icon or Static did? This has, btw, nothing to do with execution. Gage is a TOPshelf writer and the art on the Wildstorm books has been excellent. The issue is editorial control and intent as well as the underlying economics that SHOULD, at least partially, govern solid business decisions.

Static, Hardware and Icon, individually, outsold BLUE BEETLE, GEN13, BACKLASH, tied the pre-Ellis STORMWATCH and nearly matched WildC.A.Ts. STATIC SHOCK ANIMATED beat the living crap out of the WIldC.A.Ts and GEN13 animated projects (and SAVAGE DRAGON, AND CADILLACS & DINOS and stacks of others).

Icon may not be as well known but Static is a gateway character with a MASSIVE audience who, if only a fraction crossed over from TV to comics, would drive him to be a huge hit. Where is the DCAU STATIC comic book? Every day there isn't one SOMEone is losing money. Using Static in similar fashion to Mr. Majestic, it would have been a simple matter to try out "new" Milestone characters and plotlines in the mainstream DCU.

Not hard. Not complex. Not even radical. Indeed it makes sound business sense.

SOP for ALL the other formerly autonomous lines that DC has absorbed.

Plus Didio said in MULTIPLE interviews that he had "big plans" for Milestone in the DCU as well as claiming Dwayne would be on JLA "until he wanted off."

And yet...

[Dwayne McDuffie]

OK: Just to be sure I understand: you believe that DC's Ink and Super Young Team are crap, true? Compared to the Milestone pantheon, they are new and un-established characters, even more so than those from Red Circle.

So you believe that we should be pointing out what a bs decision it was to do the minis for those characters, and complain that DC has given print to them, when they could have done a Static or Hardware series... correct?

And really, any new or unestablished character that DC puts in a book is crap and suspect, until DC gives the Milestone characters book or minis... correct?

It's not an either/or proposition. The point is, DC can do Ink, Red Circle and Milestone, if they wish. They chose to do Ink, Red Circle and not Milestone. They're making a statement by doing so.

[Hardware]

It's a pathetic statement that I'm hearing loud and clear. And as for Ink, the reason I'm not excited about this book is that it had a week intro. I only bought Final Crisis: Submit to read about Black Lightning and it turned out to be a decent read. Next thing I know Tattoed Man has a friggin' miniseries! Why??? Where was the build up? Who asked for him? Who said he'd be a great character to read about? I'd rather they'd put out a mini that included both BL and Tatt-man. It would've probably done better than Black Lightning: Year One. The sad part is that once they see how bad Ink tanks they'll be like, "Well, we tried a black guy but nobody was interested". No, nobody was interested in Tattoed Man! How about giving us mini's of what we ask for?! Hardware, Static, GL John Stewart, Icon, Mr. Terrific, with a top notch creative team!

[kick]

hmmm.


So the choices are basic incompetence and croneyism or basic incompetence and croneyism with a racial and gender bias?

It's not that DC has anything against minorities since, as stated above, they're publishing books like Ink and Super Young Team. As has also been mentioned, Detective Comics (the main Batman book) is being headlined by two lesbian characters, one of whom is a Latina. There's also the stuff they're doing with Blue Beetle.

The problem is just that DC is clueless. Look at the clusterfuck that was Countdown. Look at they did to Cassandra Cain. Look at what they're doing to the Titans/Teen Titans franchise (and you'll love this: yet another Titan just died in this week's recent issue ). Again, look at the Wildstorm "relaunch." Look at what they did to Dwayne's JLA. Look at how they pissed off Chuck Dixon. Look at how they screwed up Shooter's LoSH and pissed him off. etcetera. etcetera...

Charleton, at its height, was a lackluster performer and, had it not been for its connection to Steve Ditko and his pet creations there, I doubt the fanboys would have been interested on way or the other. DeMaties and Giffen made the Beetle fit into the DCU by folding him into their comedic take on JLA but he NEVER, not once EVER, managed to sustain a book for any length of time on his own. Ditto the Question who, despite a pretty awesome debut run, has foundered since (until, frankly, JLU:A gave him the Rorschach treatmant and DC gave the job to Montoya.)

Unfortunately, outside of a couple Question books (including O'Neil and Cowan's) the Charlton characters haven't really been treated correctly since the early 90's. DC's "Charlton hate" has almost become an internet meme and in-joke within the comic fan community, right along with the "JLI hate" and killing Titans. Still, you raise some good points.

But don't even get me on the Fawcett characters. Look at how many characters Fawcett had:

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/f/fawcett.htm

...and yet, only three members of the Marvel family and some of their villains have seen any substantial use within the DCU. And even then, they've managed to screw that up at times (WTF, Mary Marvel????). Though I'll admit, they've managed to do wonders with Black Adam (or more precisely, Johns has).

Still, it's almost the same problem as Static vs. the other Milestone characters.

Wildstorm's entire strength was its connection to Jim Lee, a fan favorite artist for a couple of decades now. What numbers did GEN13 do vs Static? Wildstorm is important because it should have been the model for Milestone's treatment. Mr. Majestic was used as a "Gateway drug" allowing Wildstorm's contact with and ultimately synching with the main DCU. After several xover appearances in high profile books, we get the big relaunch of WILDSTORM as part of the DCU with Jim Lee as EIC of his little feif.

Is anyone floating the notion that BACKLASH or TEAM 7 ever did the sort of numbers that Icon or Static did? This has, btw, nothing to do with execution. Gage is a TOPshelf writer and the art on the Wildstorm books has been excellent. The issue is editorial control and intent as well as the underlying economics that SHOULD, at least partially, govern solid business decisions.

Static, Hardware and Icon, individually, outsold BLUE BEETLE, GEN13, BACKLASH, tied the pre-Ellis STORMWATCH and nearly matched WildC.A.Ts. STATIC SHOCK ANIMATED beat the living crap out of the WIldC.A.Ts and GEN13 animated projects (and SAVAGE DRAGON, AND CADILLACS & DINOS and stacks of others).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jim Lee hasn't had much to do with Wildstorm ever since he and Morrison abandoned Wildstorm's "relaunch" aka WorldStorm. Lee and Morrison just up and lost interest and the entire Wildstorm line has suffered as a result. Not only do the current books not compete anywhere near with Wildstorm's stuff from the early 2000's, including Joe Casey's Wildcats 3.0, they are actually beginning to reach (direct market) fucking Johnny DC numbers. And there's NO excuse, especially given that the Authority, Stormwatch and WildC.A.T.s were the shit in their heyday right along with the Milestone books, with WildC.A.T.s and related books having a large contribution towards Image's early success (along with Spawn). And once again, those three titles WS were still hot in the early 2000's. Going further from WorldStorm, World's End has also been an absolute dud and had played a hand in Wildstorm's current situation. And all of that even with Gage putting out decent stories. All in all, this whole thing has turned into a giant clusterfuck. The WorldStorm and World's End debacles = a first-hand How to Screw Up Important and Major and Projects 101.

I definitely DO NOT want Milestone's treatment to be modeled on the current Wildstorm. That would suck real bad.

Icon may not be as well known but Static is a gateway character with a MASSIVE audience who, if only a fraction crossed over from TV to comics, would drive him to be a huge hit. Where is the DCAU STATIC comic book? Every day there isn't one SOMEone is losing money. Using Static in similar fashion to Mr. Majestic, it would have been a simple matter to try out "new" Milestone characters and plotlines in the mainstream DCU.

The problem is outside popularity/awareness doesn't always = comic book sales. Take the Blade example I listed earlier for instance. Or better yet, any individual X-Men character apart from Wolverine and to an extent Deadpool (see: Gambit).

What we need is to find a way to get casual fans to read comic books.

Still, you're right on about there needing to be a DCAU Static book. That would definitely help things. I still don't why there wasn't such book back when Static Shock was airing on KWB. That would have been a perfect opportunity. I'm not sure about using DCAU Static as bridge into the main DCU though, as that would leave the Milestone Static in the dust. The cartoon wasn't canon with the Milestone comics.

Not hard. Not complex. Not even radical. Indeed it makes sound business sense.

SOP for ALL the other formerly autonomous lines that DC has absorbed.

Plus Didio said in MULTIPLE interviews that he had "big plans" for Milestone in the DCU as well as claiming Dwayne would be on JLA "until he wanted off."

And yet...

I think the problem is that editorial just plans things and changes plans on the fly with no real direction. It's like they don't know what they're doing tomorrow, are near clueless about what they're doing today and forgot what they did yesterday.

Oh, and speaking of Chuck Dixon, let's just say he was none too happy about that stuff:

http://johnnygigawatt.com/?p=194

http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/06/16/ch ... -not-quit/

Basically put, DC editorial is a mess:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.co ... onference/

It's not an either/or proposition. The point is, DC can do Ink, Red Circle and Milestone, if they wish. They chose to do Ink, Red Circle and not Milestone. They're making a statement by doing so.

The Red Circle stuff is being done because JMS wanted it. But you're right, if the new Tattoed Man could get his own mini, then Static should definitely also get his own mini at the very least. This also doesn't explain why non-JMS-written Red Circle titles are being released.

From the looks of it, it seems most of the time the only way to get things at DC is to have people with some significant level of creative pull actually want to do things.

That's why I really want to find ways to get writers with a substantial level of pull interested in doing projects and stories with Milestone characters. The higher the level of pull, the higher the chances of DC okay-ing it ASAP.